The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy

What happens when one partner needs emotional connection before sex, while the other experiences sex as one of the primary ways they feel emotionally connected?
Too often, couples—and even therapists—get caught trying to decide which need should come first. In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins sits down with Dr. Laurie Watson, coauthor of Brave Love, Great Sex, for a rich conversation about why the emotional and sexual bonds in romantic relationships cannot be separated.
Laurie explains how couples can become caught in two interconnected pursue-withdraw cycles: an emotional cycle and a sexual cycle. One partner may pursue emotionally while withdrawing sexually, while the other withdraws emotionally but reaches for connection through sex. Underneath both are familiar attachment questions: Do you want me? Do I matter to you? Will you respond to me? Am I safe needing you?
James and Laurie explore how attachment history, childhood experiences with touch, body image, sexual functioning, anxiety, shame, and vulnerability can all shape what happens between partners in the bedroom. They also discuss why sexual withdrawal is not simply a lack of desire and sexual pursuit is not simply wanting more sex—both can be attempts to manage deeply vulnerable relational needs.
Link to Brave Love Great Sex Podcast 
Amazon Link for Brave Love Great Sex Book
Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode of Push the Leading Edge, Dr. James Hawk and Dr. Ryan Rana explore a powerful clinical question: What if, instead of always trying to get underneath protection, we slowed down and worked with it?
Drawing from live sessions with George Faller and their own case work, they unpack how repetitive, honoring validation of protective moves can transform “stuck” couples—especially long-term pairs who have been looping in the same rigid patterns for years.
You’ll hear how protection shows up in withdrawers and pursuers, why it’s more than “resistance,” and how treating protection as a pathway rather than a problem can unlock embodied emotion, reshape shame, and open the door for more organic Stage 2 work. 
Top Ten Learning Points
Protection is a doorway, not just a barrier.
Protection (withdrawal, criticism, task-focus, etc.) can be a direct entry point into attachment longings and fears, not just something to get past.
TEMPO as a multi-door model.
TEMPO (Trigger, Emotion, Meaning, Protection) is like a car with four doors; you don’t always have to enter through “E” (emotion)—you can enter through P: protection and still reach the heart.
Rounds and rounds of validation change the nervous system.
George’s method involves extended, layered validation of protection (20–30 minutes), not just a quick nod.
This repeated honoring of the positive intent behind protection visibly reduces pressure and invites live emotion to surface naturally.
Protection is emotional dysregulation, not just “defensiveness.”
Protective moves are embodied dysregulation driven by fear, shame, and threat—not a character flaw.
People often hate the very protections they defend and feel deeply ashamed about them.
Protection serves at least four functions at once.
It protects self,
protects partner,
protects the relationship system,
and preserves a sense of basic safety (e.g., “If I don’t do this, we might lose the family/us”).
Long-term couples are running habits, not conscious choices.
After 7+ years of distress, partners often don’t even know they’re doing their protection move—it’s become automatic, like breathing.
A single powerful enactment doesn’t automatically undo years of patterned protection.
Deep validation reshapes the observing partner’s view.
When one partner’s protection is validated in detail, the other partner gets a front-row, re-framed view of behavior they previously only experienced as hurtful.
This can shift, “You’re just being critical/checked out” into, “Oh, this is your way of trying to protect us and not give up on us.”
You must deal with what’s on top before you earn what’s underneath.
If therapists say, “I want to get underneath that,” but never really work with the protection, they often get blocked.
You “earn the right” to deeper vulnerability by regulating and honoring what’s on top (the protection) first.
This approach especially helps withdrawers, pursuers, and concrete thinkers.
Withdrawers: feel seen in their performance, tasking, and “keeping the peace” superpowers, instead of constantly being pushed to “do more emotion.”
Pursuers: finally have their energy named as a protective, committed force rather than “too much” or “critical.”
Clients wary of emotion / neurodivergent / highly concrete: protection-focused work feels practical and tangible, less abstract than pure emotion work.
Protection work can set up a more organic Tango.
George often spends a long time in Tango 1–2 space around protection—tracking, reflecting, and deepening.
Once protection is truly validated and regulated, emotion tends to emerge organically, making Tango 2–3–4 smoother and more authentic, rather than forced.
For EFT therapists, the episode offers a direct challenge: we already know how to track cycles, explore meaning, evoke emotion, and create new conversations—now we need the courage to bring those same skills into the sexual relationship.
This is a conversation about helping couples develop the courage to open their hearts emotionally and sexually, creating the possibility for both brave love and great sex.
A Core Line for the Episode
Great sex and brave love are not two separate destinations. Emotional and sexual vulnerability can strengthen one another when partners learn to reach, respond, and remain present in both systems.
Top Ten Takeaways
1. Emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy are reciprocal systems.Treating sex and emotional attachment as separate domains can cause therapists to miss how strongly each influences the other. Couples have multiple pathways toward experiencing security and connection.
2. Couples can become trapped in a “you go first” standoff.One partner may essentially say, “Connect with me emotionally and then I can open sexually,” while the other says, “Connect with me sexually and then I can feel emotionally close.” Both partners wait for the other to make the first vulnerable move.
3. Couples may have two different pursue-withdraw cycles operating simultaneously.A person can be an emotional pursuer and sexual withdrawer—or an emotional withdrawer and sexual pursuer. The emotional and sexual positions do not necessarily line up.
4. Sexual behavior carries attachment meaning.A sexual reach can communicate, “Do you desire me? Will you choose me? Am I important to you?” A missed response can therefore register in the nervous system as much more than simply not having sex.
5. Attachment history matters, but it does not explain everything about sexuality.Attachment strategies influence how people approach relationships and sex, but hormones, trauma, early sexual experiences, family messages, body experiences, and other developmental factors also shape the sexual system.
6. Sexual withdrawal deserves curiosity rather than judgment.Pulling away from sex may protect someone from profound vulnerability. A history of insufficient or unsafe touch can make needing physical closeness feel frightening rather than comforting.
7. Sexual pursuit is often about more than sex.The sexual pursuer may be reaching for reassurance, desirability, closeness, affirmation, or embodied connection. Anxiety about whether the partner will respond can intensify pursuit, just as it does in an emotional cycle.
8. EFT therapists already possess many of the skills needed to explore sexuality.Questions such as “What happened inside when your partner responded that way?” “What did that mean about you?” and “What did you need in that moment?” translate naturally from emotional-cycle work into sexual-cycle work.
9. Slow the sexual experience down frame by frame.Therapists can explore not only thoughts and emotions but physiological responses: arousal, loss of arousal, erection, orgasm, touch, tension, and bodily shutdown. Then help partners communicate what is happening rather than silently interpreting one another.
10. Therapist discomfort should not leave couples alone with one of their most vulnerable struggles.Therapists may worry that talking explicitly about sex is intrusive, inappropriate, or voyeuristic. Laurie’s challenge is to remain gentle, respectful, and specific rather than avoiding the subject altogether. Couples often need help developing language for experiences they have been unable to discuss anywhere else.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!
 

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode, James and Ryan unpack a simple but powerful metaphor for adult romantic bonds: the red hat (emotional system), blue hat (caregiving system), and purple hat (sexual system). Drawing on attachment science from Phil Shaver, Mario Mikulincer, and Sue Johnson, they show how these three behavioral systems interact in-session and at home—and why you “can’t red-hat your way into connection.” You’ll hear vivid clinical examples, live-process reflections, and practical language you can bring straight to your couples, helping them see their cycle, name their hats, and take the first small blue-hat risks that change everything.
1. The Three Behavioral Systems = Three Hats
Red Hat = Emotional System
The hardwired system that signals inner experience—distress, pain, longings—outward.
“Red” is not bad; it’s the channel for “something is happening in me; I need you to see it.”
Blue Hat = Caregiving System
The instinct to turn toward another’s distress: to be accessible, responsive, and engaged.
In EFT terms, this is the responsive other—and it’s what actually creates and maintains bond.
Purple Hat = Sexual System
The system driving touch, pleasure, and erotic connection in adult romantic bonds.
Not an “add-on” after emotions are fixed, but a co-equal system that interacts with red and blue.
2. You Can’t “Red-Hat” Your Way into Connection
When both partners stay in red, they’re each sending signals but no one is picking up the phone.
That red‑vs‑red pattern feels like:
competing for whose pain “counts,”
chronic explaining, convincing, and defending,
more loneliness after talking than before.
Without at least a little blue hat, the bond cannot form or repair—no matter how much content is shared.
3. The Blue Hat Is Vulnerable Work—for Clients and Clinicians
Putting on the blue hat requires a yielding move (Jim Coan’s language):
setting your own swirl aside for a moment,
letting the other’s pain actually touch you,
allowing yourself to be impacted and guided by their inner world.
For many partners (especially withdrawers), caregiving is wired to feel like a set-up for failure:
“Every invitation is just another chance to get it wrong.”
They often pull their heart back to protect against repeated failure.
As a therapist or coach, you are meant to wear the blue hat for everyone in the room:
If your compassion goes offline for one partner, the cycle has pulled you into red.
Your temporary blue hat often “bridges” when a partner can’t yet offer that responsiveness.
4. Red, Blue, and Purple Are Interlocking Cogs, Not a Straight Line
Traditional framing: fix the emotional system first, and the sexual system will naturally follow.
This episode offers a more mutual, systemic view:
Secure emotional connection supports satisfying sexual connection.
Blocked or painful sexual dynamics also make emotional safety harder.
Deep, responsive sexual moments can reinforce emotional security, and vice versa.
Think of the systems as interlocked gears: when one jams (emotion, caregiving, or sex), the others feel the strain.
5. Simple Metaphor, Heavy Theory Behind It
The hat model is a front-door metaphor for clients that quietly carries:
attachment research (5,000+ studies),
Shaver & Mikulincer’s work on adult bonding systems,
Sue Johnson’s emphasis on responsiveness as the core of love.
Instead of teaching full attachment theory to clients who “can’t even sit on the same couch,” you:
offer two or three hats they can remember in the heat of the moment,
help them name when they’re switching hats, and
anchor micro-interventions: “Right now, everyone has the red hat on. Who can risk 1% of a blue hat?”
6. Seeing the Cycle = Regaining Choice
Clients cannot change what they cannot see; “hats” give them a shared language to see it.
Therapists can track:
When red turns from “open red” (vulnerable sharing) into “shadow red” (mistrust, blame, vague signals).
When a partner briefly has a blue hat on and then flips back into red.
When sexual bids (purple) are met with blue (healing) vs met with red (rejection, mistrust).
Even a 1% blue-hat response (e.g., “I can see how hard that is for you”) can be enough to create real hope.
7. Beyond the Couch: A Call for More Blue Hats in the Culture
The same red‑vs‑red dynamic shows up at the societal level:
“My red hat is bigger/more legitimate than your red hat.”
Lots of pain, very few reliable blue hats.
The episode frames EFT and attachment science as world-facing work:
inviting more blue‑hat moments in communities, justice spaces, and public conversations,
honoring community leaders who quietly build learning communities that increase quality of care everywhere.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode of The Leading Edge in EFT, James Hawkins and Ryan Reyna tackle one of the trickiest tensions in therapy: how to work with distortion and meaning-making without gaslighting your client—especially tender pursuers and highly protected withdrawers.
Using a vivid “watermelon vs. hot sauce” metaphor, they unpack what happens when one partner intends care, but the other receives danger. They explore why the brain distorts on purpose in the name of survival, how to keep honoring the client’s emotional reality, and how to redirect blame away from partners and back to the negative cycle as the true enemy.
You’ll hear a powerful reframe that replaces the potentially invalidating, “What’s the story you’re telling yourself?” with a cleaner, safer question:
“When you see Trigger X, what message does the cycle send to you about how your partner sees you?”
James and Ryan apply this lens not just to couples, but also to race, marginalization, and societal conversations, illustrating how attempts to “correct the facts” can land as gaslighting when bodies are carrying generations of threat. They share moving examples of Stage 2 and Stage 3 work where partners begin catching and correcting the cycle on their own—creating “cycle killer” moments that change everything.
If you’re an EFT therapist, trauma-informed clinician, or a partner trying to understand your own reactions, this episode will help you honor emotion, respect meaning-making, and still gently face distortion—without shaming or silencing anyone.
Top Takeaways 
“Distortion” in EFT ≠ Fake or Irrational Emotion
Emotions are never irrational; they always make sense in context.
What may be “distorted” is the meaning-making or thinking, not the feeling.
Watermelon vs. Hot Sauce Metaphor
One partner offers something meant to be sweet and refreshing (watermelon).
The other experiences it as danger or attack (hot sauce).
This gap often comes from old injuries, expectations of being hurt, and the cycle, not badness in either partner.
Why “What’s the Story You Tell Yourself?” Can Feel Like Gaslighting
Although poetic, it can land as, “This is just in your head; you’re making it up.”
For pursuers especially, this repeats a long history of being told they’re “too much” or “misreading reality.”
A Safer, Cleaner Clinical Question
Instead of: “What’s the story you’re telling yourself?”
Use:
“When you see Trigger X, what message does the cycle send to you about how your partner sees you?”
This question:
Honors the client’s internal world and logic.
Externalizes the problem to the cycle, not the partner.
Protects both partners from blame and shame.
The Cycle as the Real Distorter
The negative cycle becomes the “third entity” that scrambles messages.
Seeing the cycle as the enemy helps the therapist stay out of the triangle and helps partners fight the cycle, not each other.
Expected Pain Is Real Pain (Jim Coan’s Research)
The brain responds to anticipated threat almost as if it already happened.
So even if words are technically “distorted,” the body’s reaction is real and valid.
The limbic system amplifies signals to protect, not to be dramatic.
Clinical Target: Lean Into Pain, Not Cognitive Correction
If you pivot too fast to “self-reflection” or cognitive reframe, you may move away from the raw pain where the best enactments live.
Staying with the pain supports deeper Stage 2 work and more powerful enactments.
Personal vs. Clinical Use of Self-Reflection
Personally, it’s healthy to ask, “Is this really what they meant, or is this my story?”
Clinically, putting that question on the client too soon can feel invalidating and gaslighting.
Application to Race, Marginalization, and Power
When someone names patterns of racism or marginalization, responding only with “facts” and statistics often lands as, “You’re crazy; that’s not real.”
Bodies encode generational and societal cycles, so their threat response has good reasons.
Saying, “I can see good reasons your brain codes it this way,” is deeply regulating and dignifying.
Stage 2 & Stage 3: “Cycle Killer” Moments
In de-escalated couples, partners begin to say things like:
“This might be my stuff coming up, but here’s what happens for me…”
“You don’t have to put that part of you away—let’s make space for your fear and my optimism.”
These are Stage 3 moments where partners catch and correct the cycle themselves—sometimes without therapist intervention.
Therapist Posture: Genuine Blame on the Cycle
Effective EFT therapists truly believe that “this is the cycle, not their character.”
Repeated exposure to Stage 2/3 couples reshapes the therapist’s internal frame, making it easier to hold the externalized cycle under pressure.
Therapist Self-Care and Embodiment
Therapy is hard on bodies, not just minds.
Ryan and James emphasize physical health practices (walking, gym, etc.) as non-optional for therapists.
Our bodies are the instrument we bring into the room.
From the Couch to the Culture
The same principles that de-escalate couples can transform societal conversations—about race, oppression, and power.
As Bruce Perry urges, therapists are invited to take what they witness in session and amplify it into the world
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Reyna walk into the heart of Stage 2 EFT and ask a hard question: How do you get the most out of YOU when every path forward involves pain?
Drawing on stories from haunted houses, combat medicine, and oncology surgery, they unpack what it means to be the stronger, wiser other—not as a top-down expert, but as a steady, emotionally present guide when clients’ eyes are begging, “Please don’t make me go there.”
You’ll hear how to:
Stay confident and regulated in deep Stage 2 work
Use your own limbic system, intensity, and presence in service of healing
Avoid “over-validating” clients out of depth
Become relentless but attuned when working with shame, trauma, and withdrawer re-engagement
Here are the top 10 points from the episode in bullet format, tailored for therapists:
Therapist consistency is heroic work
Therapists, like elite athletes or Navy SEALs, show up and train relentlessly—session after session—often without recognition, but this consistency is what makes deep Stage 2 work possible.
You are the “stronger, wiser other” in Stage 2
Borrowing from Bowlby, the therapist’s role is to be a grounded, slightly leading presence—not hierarchical, but a steady guide who believes in the clients’ capacity to go deeper.
Clients need your confidence more than your explanations
In Stage 2, detailed EFT mapping is less helpful than a calm, “I know where we’re going; we can do this together” energy.
Tone matters: gentle, invitational, and regulated—not pushy or detached.
Every real option involves pain—but not the same kind of pain
If you back away when clients say “don’t make me do this,” you protect them now but leave unregulated pain to hurt them later.
If you stay with them in the fear and shame, you create constructive, healing pain that opens the door to new patterns.
Self-coaching: what do YOU need to hear in the chair?
Therapists need internal scripts/mantras (e.g., “No one gets left behind on the battlefield”).
Drawing on mentors, attachment figures, faith, or personal values can help you stay present when you want to retreat.
Use your own limbic system—and the partner’s—to share the load
Strategic use of “we” (“We’ll go there together,” “We can face this”) helps clients feel they’re not alone.
The therapist can consciously bring their own emotional presence and the partner’s caregiving energy to bear on the hardest moments.
Relentless, attuned fighting for the client
Ryan names his intensity and even competitiveness as assets: he refuses to let the cycle “win.”
Clients often experience this as, “You fought for us more than we fought for ourselves,” which becomes contagious and regulating—as long as it stays tethered to alliance and repair.
Validation and celebration must be timed and dosed well
Over-validating or celebrating too soon can pull clients out of depth, like doing a cold plunge right after a hard muscle-building workout.
Validation should support staying with the core emotion, not remove the heat from the room prematurely.
Withdrawer re-engagement is “drip by drip” work
Ryan uses the oncologic surgery metaphor: you don’t want to close up while leaving “half the tumor” (unworked shame, trauma, negative self-views) inside.
Stage 2 requires repetition and reps—going back into the “torture chamber” scenes multiple times so the body learns, “I don’t have to do this alone anymore.”
Homework: study your A-game and your use of self
Notice what you do when you’re at your best: your presence, nonverbals, timing, intensity, or way of breathing/pausing.
Ask: How am I regulating me? How am I using me as the tool?
Then intentionally amplify those strengths and clarify what needs adjustment (e.g., less rescuing, more tolerating pain, smarter use of validation).
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode of The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, James and Ryan explore the “sequela” — the long-term fallout — of the burnout pursuer and how that shows up in both Stage 1 and Stage 2 EFT. They unpack what it means to truly witness a burned-out pursuer’s journey instead of trying to “get them to move,” why holdouts are such a powerful (and costly) survival strategy, and how to work with the unique shame of someone who feels, “I hate myself for still loving you.”
You’ll hear practical ways to:
Stay grounded with a pursuer who’s done protesting and now just shows up with crossed arms
Do the kind of historical witnessing that feels more like a series of emotional “massages” than a quick intervention
Use hope scenes and the “big three” moments of failed hope in Stage 2 to create deep limbic revision
Support re-engagement without accidentally reenacting the very patterns that burned them out in the first place
Top 10 Points from the Episode
“Sequela” as a frame:Ryan uses “sequela” (the long-term consequences) to describe what we’re really dealing with in a burnout pursuer—not just current behavior, but the accumulated fallout of thousands of drops, failed bids, and unresolved pain.
Burnout pursuer = mixed signals + survival strategy:Burnout pursuers send mixed messages to their partner, the therapist, and themselves. What looks like manipulation or a “power move” is actually an adaptive survival strategy to cope with feeling helpless and repeatedly dropped.
Historical witnessing is non‑negotiable:Stage 1 work with burnout pursuers requires slow, repeated, historical witnessing—not “forget the past, let’s start over.” The therapist invites them to tell the journey of how they got this burned out, and stays with the horror and grief of it instead of talking them out of it.
The “holdout” dynamic:A burnout pursuer may show up in therapy with arms crossed, essentially saying, “I’m here, but I’m not moving until my partner proves it.” That holdout protects them, but also rigidly locks the cycle in place, sometimes even raising the bar as the withdrawer improves.
Therapist stance: release the need to make them move:James names a crucial shift: the therapist must let go of the internal pressure to get the pursuer to move. The more the therapist pushes, the more the pursuer’s nervous system feels pressured and unsafe. The work becomes: “James, just be with what is. Give witness to their journey.”
Stage 1 as repeated “emotional massage”:Ryan likens the work to a series of massages—one session won’t undo years of knots. The therapist returns multiple times to witnessing, validating, and grieving with the pursuer, even as this can be very hard on the withdrawer who’s just starting to “get it.”
Unique shame of the burnout pursuer:There’s a specific shame: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me thousands of times… shame on me.” Many burnout pursuers feel, “I love you, and I hate myself for the fact that I love you.” Without naming and working this shame, they can’t risk hope again.
Stage 2: asking them to care‑give again is huge:When the couple “dumps over” into Stage 2, the burnout pursuer is often asked to sit with and respond to their partner’s vulnerability first. This can re-evoke the old experience: “Once again, it’s not about me.” Naming how much is being asked of them is essential.
The “big three” hope scenes as core Stage 2 work:Effective Stage 2 softening with burnout pursuers often requires revisiting 2–3 symbolic “big hope” moments (e.g., an elaborate romantic trip) where they risked, hoped, and were dropped. These hope scenes become key sites for deep grief, attachment injury work, and limbic revision—otherwise, it’s like leaving a tumor behind and relapse risk stays high.
From vision → witness → visual redemption (the “eye” theme):Pursuers are visionaries—they can see how good the relationship could be, but that visionary energy often works against them. They need:
Witness in Stage 1 & early Stage 2: someone who really sees the journey of their drops and failed hopes.
Visual redemption in late Stage 2: in Step 7, the re-engaged withdrawer looks at them and clearly names, how I see you—lovable, worth fighting for, beautiful, someone I want to be with. That attuned “I see you” becomes a redemptive corrective to years of being unseen and dropped.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

What happens in the deepest moments of Stage 2 EFT work?In this special roundtable episode of The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosts Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana sit down with three pioneers in EFT process research and training: Dr. Jim Furrow, Dr. Kathryn Rheem, and Dr. Marlene Best.
Together, they unpack the heart of Stage 2 change events in EFT: withdrawer re-engagement, pursuer softening, therapeutic presence, fear, longing, attachment risk, and the healing power of vulnerable reach-and-response moments.
This conversation is more than theory. It is a masterclass in how therapists help clients move from talking about emotion to speaking from emotion. The group explores how fear and longing work together, why vulnerability requires both courage and safety, and how the therapist’s emotional presence becomes the bridge that helps clients risk connection.
You’ll hear powerful reflections on:
Why fear must become experiential in Stage 2
The difference between Stage 1 and Stage 2 emotional work
How longing creates movement through fear
Why enactments are essential for deep limbic revision
The therapist’s role in co-regulating attachment risk
How healing becomes more powerful than hurt in secure connection
This episode is rich with clinical wisdom, emotional depth, and heartfelt reflections from some of the leading voices who helped shape modern EFT.
If you’re an EFT therapist wanting to deepen your Stage 2 work—or simply someone passionate about emotional connection and healing relationships—this is an episode you will want to revisit again and again.
In This Episode
The Origins of Stage 2 EFT Research
The guests reflect on the early development of EFT process research and how their studies on pursuer softening and withdrawer re-engagement helped therapists better understand the moment-to-moment dynamics of attachment transformation.
Fear vs. Speaking From Fear
The conversation explores the difference between naming fear cognitively versus helping clients experientially contact fear in the present moment.
Longing and Fear Work Together
Dr. Marlene Best shares her now-famous insight that longing must move through fear for attachment change to occur. The group discusses how longing creates movement and momentum toward vulnerable reach.
Therapeutic Presence as Co-Regulation
Dr. Jim Furrow highlights that clients cannot stay emotionally present to fear unless therapists bring their own grounded emotional presence into the room.
Stage 1 vs. Stage 2 Emotional Work
The panel clarifies the crucial difference between:
accessing primary emotion in Stage 1
restructuring attachment through view of self/view of other in Stage 2.
Healing Is More Powerful Than Hurt
Dr. Kathryn Rheem closes with a moving reflection on how humans are wired both to hurt and to heal—and how vulnerable connection transforms emotional suffering into secure attachment.
Key Clinical Takeaways
Fear is not the enemy in Stage 2—it is the doorway.
Longing creates movement through attachment fear.
Therapists must bring their presence before asking clients to bring theirs.
Enactments help clients move from insight into embodied relational experience.
Stage 2 is about restructuring view of self and view of other.
Healing occurs when fear is shared relationally.
Withdrawers often access sadness and loss before fear.
Pursuer softening requires risk, surrender, and emotional reach.
Emotional safety grows through repeated vulnerable experiences.
Deep limbic revision requires deep experiential contact.
Best Quotes from the Episode
“We don’t just talk about fear in Stage 2—we speak from fear.”
“If you want someone to be present to their fear, you need to bring your presence.”
“Longing has to move through the fear.”
“The therapist’s regulation becomes the emotional scaffolding for the couple.”
“Stage 2 is not just emotional access—it’s restructuring attachment.”
“Fear reshapes our priorities and tells us not to reach when we most need connection.”
“The healing becomes more powerful than the hurt.”
“The goal isn’t to eliminate fear. The goal is to reach while fear is still present.”
“Therapists often drive past view of self and view of other instead of slowing down and exploring them.”
“We heal when vulnerable experience becomes relationally shared.”
“The deeper the longing, the deeper the fear.”
“People pull away from love when they’re terrified of losing it.”
“Healing happens when someone risks reaching and another person responds.”
“Fear says ‘don’t reach.’ Love says ‘try anyway.’”
“We all want someone who can help us carry what feels too heavy alone.”
“The strongest relationships aren’t fear-free—they’re responsive in the presence of fear.”
“Behind anger and distance is often grief, fear, and longing.”
“Secure connection grows when people can finally share what they were afraid to reveal.”
“You don’t heal by never hurting again. You heal by no longer hurting alone.”
“The courage to be emotionally honest changes relationships.”
EFT World Summit 2027
We wanted to let you know that the EFT World Summit 2027 is coming to Vancouver — May 9 to 11, 2027 — and we would love to see you there.
The Summit is the flagship gathering of the global EFT community — the moment when practitioners from over 40 countries come together in one place. You'll be in the room with the researchers and clinicians that have shaped your practice, and you'll participate in conversations that are writing the next chapter of this work. The line up of plenary speakers includes Gail Palmer, Leanne Campbell, Jim Coan, Mark Solms, and Gordon Neufeld — alongside your 4 choices of 12 hands-on workshops across all three modalities, hosted by leaders in the EFT community. All sessions are eligible for CE credits, so you can fulfill your continuing education requirements while connecting with practitioners who speak your clinical language.
Click the text below to link to the registration website. 
Come join us in Vancouver! Visit eftsummit2027.com to register today, and take your place in the gathering this community has been waiting for.

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
Welcome back to The Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy. In this episode, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana discuss the concept of “Stage 2 Rehab” — the process of helping couples recover when deep emotional work becomes blocked, disorganized, or overwhelming.
Rather than seeing difficult sessions as failures, James and Ryan explore how moments of fear, confusion, and protective relapse often become opportunities for deeper attachment repair when therapists know how to slow down, reorganize the process, and help clients regain safety.
Why Stage 2 Work Can Collapse
Clients may not yet feel safe enough for depth
Fear often interrupts vulnerability
The caregiving system can become disoriented or blocked
Therapists sometimes move too fast for the nervous system
Stage 2 Rehab Strategies
Return to the last successful emotional step
Normalize fear and hesitation
Slow the process down
Regulate therapist energy and pacing
Help clients climb “back up the ladder.”
Reorganize emotional safety before pushing for more vulnerability
Highlighting Longing Beneath Pain
Drawing from Gail Palmer’s work, James and Ryan discuss how helping clients contact longing—not just pain—can soften blocks and reopen emotional engagement.
Resetting the Caregiving System
The hosts explore how caregivers can become overwhelmed, defensive, solution-focused, or emotionally disorganized during deep moments — and how therapists can help restore accessibility and responsiveness.
Therapist Takeaways
Don’t panic when the process breaks down
Fear is often the doorway, not the obstacle
Stay exploratory rather than perfectionistic
Repairing the process is often the work itself
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
🔥 The “Crazy Eights” (Two Lists of 8)
1. 8 Stage 2 Targets (Where to Go)
These are the deepest places where transformation happens:
Individual trauma (moments of being overwhelmed without escape)
Disowned parts of self (rejected to survive connection)
Attachment injuries (relational “never again” moments)
Significant loss (grief that reshapes attachment)
Family-of-origin wounds (roles, neglect, triangulation)
Early/formative relational experiences (first heartbreaks, betrayals)
Negative working model of self (“I am not enough”)
Fear of reaching + deepest attachment longings
2. 8 Scene Evocation Cues (How to Get There)
Used to unlock deep emotional processing:
What do you see?
What are the colors/details in the room?
What is the temperature?
What are you sitting on?
What is touching your body (clothes, textures)?
What do you hear?
What is happening in others’ eyes/faces?
What do you notice in your body right now?
💡 Top 10 Nuggets from the Show
Stage 2 is about building co-regulation bridges, not just insight.
You cannot revise what has never been fully experienced.
Therapists must go toward pain, not around it.
Safety is not the same as comfort.
If you avoid shame, you will also avoid transformation.
Emotion must be somatically alive to create lasting change.
“Fear” is not enough—you must access the meaning beneath the fear.
Deep work lowers relapse because the body learns a new path.
Clients don’t need to be taught—they need to experience something new.
Therapy is most powerful when we help clients say the unsayable.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
In this deeply honoring conversation, Dr. James Hawkins and Dr. Ryan Rana return to the intersection of culture, oppression, and psychotherapy, focusing specifically on how these forces emerge in Stage 2 EFT. James introduces the idea of social trauma and social betrayal—those moments when central identity markers (race, gender, ability, class, religion, size, region, etc.) are attacked, marginalized, or devalued by the larger society. They discuss internalized racism (drawing from Dr. Ken Hardy’s work), the cumulative messages clients absorb about their worth, and how these experiences shape negative models of self and deep attachment fears.
Through vivid clinical examples—adoption, biracial identity, hearing impairment, body size, regional and racial identity—James and Ryan illustrate how Stage 2 work often pulls up stories and wounds that neither therapist nor client fully recognized at the start. They connect this to the CARE model (Context, Attachment, Relationship, Emotional capacity/strategies) and model a stance of curiosity, openness, and cultural humility. Listeners will come away with concrete questions, postures, and interventions to help clients discern where protective “armor” is needed in society, and where it may be blocking intimacy at home, so that partners can become safe places to “take the armor off.”
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast, you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!

Welcome to the Leading Edge in Emotionally Focused Therapy, hosted by Drs. James Hawkins, Ph.D., LPC, and Ryan Rana, Ph.D., LMFT, LPC—Renowned ICEEFT Therapists, Supervisors, and Trainers. We're thrilled to have you with us. We believe this podcast, a valuable resource, will empower you to push the boundaries in your work, helping individuals and couples connect more deeply with themselves and each other.
In this episode of Push the Leading Edge, Dr. James Hawkins (Doc Hawk) and Dr. Ryan Rana unpack what it actually looks and feels like when a couple reaches the end of Stage 2 in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT).
They move beyond theory and manuals into the lived, embodied reality: couples who can stay in the emotional “fire,” face their deepest shame and pain, and still reach for each other. Using vivid metaphors—from Navy SEAL training, battle buddies, and swim buddies, to military deployments and “embrace the suck”—they illustrate how Stage 2 work transforms not just the relationship, but each partner’s internal sense of self and safety.
Top 10 Takeaways from This Episode
End of Stage 2 = Installed Positive Cycle
You know you’re at the end of Stage 2 when couples can see, use, and stay in a positive cycle on their own.
The negative cycle isn’t “gone,” but they can repair it reliably and return to connection.
It’s Not About Trying, It’s About Training
Stage 2 is like military training: repeated, high‑pressure enactments (often ~30+ deep enactments across Stage 2) build automatic, embodied responses, not just cognitive insight.
When the “bricks clack” (the trigger of the negative cycle), their bodies now know what to do.
Caregiving System Comes Online
A key marker of Stage 2 completion is that each partner’s caregiving system is active and available.
Partners start pre‑emptively making space for the other’s pain, even before a clear signal is sent, and can say, in effect, “I know this might be hard for you, and I’m here.”
“I Must Be Willing to Know Me to Be Known by You”
Borrowing from Leanne Campbell, James highlights that clients must be willing to know themselves—all the versions of self—for true intimacy.
By end of Stage 2, clients are less afraid of their inner world; they befriend previously shame-filled parts and bring them into the relationship.
Both Partners Can Go Deep and Offer A.R.E.
True Stage 2 completion means both partners can:
Go deep into vulnerability without getting stuck in blame or avoidance
Offer A.R.E. (Accessibility, Responsiveness, Engagement) as caregivers
It’s not enough for just one partner to do deep work; dyadic reciprocity is crucial.
From “Fix Me” to “Be With Me”
A major shift is from “please fix me or fix this” to “be with me in this.”
Therapists should mark not only outcomes but effort and presence: “Look how you stayed with your partner for 30 minutes in the basement of their pain without trying to fix it.”
Confidence and Relational Resilience Grow
Couples leave Stage 2 with a felt sense of, “We can do this.”
They have experiential proof that under pressure they can rappel into the basement of pain, stay present, and emerge together—building relational resilience, not just symptom relief.
Secure Bonds Are Simple but Not Easy
Secure bonds aren’t conceptually complicated:
Show up
Stay present
Respond vulnerably and reliably
The hard part is slowing down when the body wants to speed up and remaining vulnerably present in discomfort, not learning 50 relationship tricks.
Battle Buddies and Swim Buddies: You’re Not Alone in the Fire
End of Stage 2 means each partner has a “battle buddy” / “swim buddy” / “wingman”—someone who will go into the fire with them, not just cheer from a distance.
You cannot become a battle buddy without fire; Stage 2 requires going into pain, not just building safety around it.
Therapists Must Mark and Install Key Moments
A big part of the therapist’s role is to slow down, mark, and install these turning points:
Naming the risk
Naming the caregiving response
Naming the resilience and mutual effort
This helps clients encode and remember how they did it, so they can find their way back outside of the session.
We aim to equip therapists with practical tools and encouragement for addressing relational distress. We're also excited to be part of the team behind Success in Vulnerability (SV)—your premier online education platform. SV offers innovative instruction to enhance your therapeutic effectiveness through exclusive modules and in-depth clinical examples.
 Stay connected with us:
Facebook: Follow our page @pushtheleadingedge
Ryan: Follow @ryanranaprofessionaltraining on Facebook and visit his website
James: Follow @dochawklpc on Facebook and Instagram, or visit his website at dochawklpc.com
George Faller: Visit georgefaller.com
If you like the concepts discussed on this podcast you can explore our online training program, Success in Vulnerability (SV).
Thank you for being part of our community. Let's push the leading edge together!